Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

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Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by }{odge-Podge on 28/5/2012, 06:19

Right now I should be reading Jane Eyre, but I cannot take another page of that book right now. Anyway on to what I actually want to talk about:

I read a post where Leafy said
PS: If I ever manage to fix the current bugs in 5.49b, the next map WILL have a weaker Tinker and stronger Effect Master, MissAllYouCanKnow, Leoric, Beast, Ghost and Centaurs. I'm also considering limiting the number of Faerie Dragons, Fountains and Tanks to be allowed, for Dragon, The Pure and Goblin respectively (Dragon would receive an early tier upgrade though). Hope that gives you guys something to think about Smile

That got me thinking; 'What would the community think about this?'. Personally, I have to agree with making Leoric stronger, seeing as he actually cannot kill a tier 1 Wolf... But this is part of the "WILL" section. What I'm actually looking at is the next part: the changes to the other builders. What other builders could benefit from a change like that?

I think Evolution's helper should actually get a remake. After a game I spoke to H3ka about buffing them and he simply said "Do you have 60 trees? ... Make 60 trees and there is your buff." So what is the point of the animal cell side of Evo, because it isn't exactly easy to get an entire maze of 60 trees and some people (like me) make the humans because we think "ooh! Critical damage and guns! Excited !" as well as because they have a much faster attack speed and are much cheaper to make. (Evo is probably one of my favourite builders so I'm not saying this because I think they are useless.)

Give your ideas, this is a community based and 'inspired' map after all. Smile
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by LeafMuncher on 28/5/2012, 12:24

My honest opinion on Evo's trees: Make them 3k instead of 5k (perhaps 4k) and reduce their damage by about half. Make marine only 1 allowed, increased damage, 15k cost, bonus damage aura (+40%, making trees do 70% of their current damage). Perhaps only allowing 1 animal cell to be made, and buffing up all tiers for it as a progressive ultimate tower. Public discussion, so bang around thoughts/ideas.

I think any builders discussed a lot in this topic should be moved to the Suggestions section of the forum. I'll also most likely post a few of the suggestions made in the Beta and Staff sections here for public discussion.

PS WP on ninja'ing the topic idea Hodge, was gonna post something similar pretty soon Excited
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by Valjavec on 28/5/2012, 12:27

I dont have enought time right now, but i have to agree with you Evo is one of my favourite builders as well, but i NEVER make animal cells, and i really mean never, i dont know all the names but i upgrade a few poison towers, later one tree few more poison few more trees until i have whole maze of trees, and with Juggle they are really good, i would only buff human part Smile and i think if your going to limit tanks fountains and dragons, you need to buff them, because if you limit them even to 40 that would weaken the race a lot, especially goblins whos only unit good enought to fight against tier 2 creep shrine is tank (im bad with names starting with 2300 gold creep, im not saying tanks arent enought to kill it, but strongest tower besides tank cant kill it unless you spam it ),imo


Edit: I like the idea since trees are really hard to make 59 of them, you would build them a lot faster, only 1 question would 70% of trees strenght be balanced with other races?
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by }{odge-Podge on 28/5/2012, 13:10

Haha, Leafy Tongue

I like your idea for having only one animal cell and make the Marine an absolute boss. I'm not too sure about what you mean by "make trees do 70% of their damage". If there were to be only one Marine allowed, then that crit that it currently has should be replaced with a stun, range should be increased by about 350 and attack type chaos. Because lets be serious, humans have pretty much dominated the shit out of this planet Tongue
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by H3katonkheir on 28/5/2012, 21:19

}{odge-Podge wrote:I'm not too sure about what you mean by "make trees do 70% of their damage".

Leafy states that trees would have their cost and damage reduced. Initially to 50% damage, but the human would have a damage aura of 40%, thus increasing a tree's damage to 70% of the original / current trees damage for reduced cost.
(Where D is the original damage)
1/2*D + 1/2*2/5*D
= 5/10*D + 2/10*D
= 7/10*D

I would take the cost to 3k, 4k seems a bit too high for a technical 50% damage since they don't do an exorbitant amount of damage in any case; 8800-8962 with 2.75 sec cd (3229 dps).

I do not like the idea of having 1 animal cell. I suggest being able to have as many as you like, but having the last tier of animals (Fish & Mammoth) have useful abilities. Perhaps giving the Mammoth a % chance to stun a target (animals have no abilities other than the human's crit).

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What I'd really like to see, is a buff to King Leoric. Every single tower of theirs is incredibly useless. I see people struggling to kill Vengeful Spirits and Spirit Walkers with 3 Death Knights (11700 gold).
Ps; 'One Time Death' does NOT do AoE damage (the tooltip lies Tongue).
Pps; There are several graphical issues with Abomination's Disease Cloud.

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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by LeafMuncher on 28/5/2012, 23:14

I'm thinking for Leoric to improve Death Knight damage and either increase mana regen rate (more One Time Dead shots) or increasing OTD damage. Other than that, a projectile speed increase for Zombies, and a price reduction for bone archers to 100g

Another thought for Evo then, allowing a maximum of 7 animal cells, with each upgrade having some sort of ability (like mammoth doing bash for example) or something along those lines. A different thought I had was to remove the animal side entirely and change the builder theme to "Garden Keeper" or something along those lines, with bush/cactus leading to trees and other route leading to an ultimate tower with similar power and scaling to what I mentioned above.

For the second example I would replace Single cell with Small Seed, Plant Cell with Sprout, and add a new Magic Seed tower at around 50g, upgrading to a 500g tower then to the ulti tower I proposed.

Now I'll quote an example suggestion from the Beta section, regarding MissAllYouCanKnow:

LeafMuncher wrote:Basically this race is perfectly fine until voids rock up. Up until then it's income potential is average, which can stay that way as long as it gets some cost reduction on the higher tiers.

I propose upgrading Books significantly, and allowing more focus on Alchemy towers. There is an upgrade to improve Alchemy towers, but at their cost compared with Pedastals there is no real point in using them, so I propose making Alchemy towers the focus of the maze by giving Pedestals increased attack rate, a damage increasing aura, possibly increasing their cost, and reducing them to a maximum of 4. The aura would buff Alchemy towers enough to cope with sas, making the race much cheaper overall to max out

Discussions following that ended on a seemingly unanimous decsions to change the builder to an Alchemy theme, with 4 Elemental Books of Knowlege, each containing upgrades and auras based on their elements. All towers up to Alchemy Labs would remain unchanged, but books would contain upgrades to improve labs or have aura properties, at around 9k per book. Overall the builder would still be quite expensive by the end game, but the costs would be far more justified
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by }{odge-Podge on 29/5/2012, 21:34

After reading what H3ka said about being able to have as many animal cells as you would like, can I build on that and propose to have the race evened out with a 50/50 ratio to what you can build? So 30 plants and and 30 animals; though on top of all of that there are two ultimate towers: Human for animal cell and Redwood Sequoia for the plant cell?
Human will have the damage aura and all those nice things that Leafy mentioned, while the Redwood Sequoia would have that same ability that the tree currently possess although it would be changed to the amount of towers of the previous tier that are built. The buff would then be changed from 1% increase to 1.5% increase. I'm not going to mention other stats yet because I'm not the most amazing TTW player and I might just overpower this race out to the point of "Hodge, go sit in the corner and die there... slowly."
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by H3katonkheir on 4/6/2012, 07:33

Leoric buffs sound good (I think archers are pretty much the backbone of him lol). Do you think perhaps that the Disease cloud could last a bit longer as well? - I seem to remember it used to be indefinite in previous versions.

The evo revive as the garden builder sounds like a good idea. Or a combination of ideas if it ever comes to it. First thought of Tebb's idea when you mentioned the garden idea Smile.

Perhaps add a vault ability? Like one that you've mentioned to me a few times about.


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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by russoka on 5/6/2012, 00:59

I want to play mode, in which the skills are not available.
-ns no skills / -nv no vault
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by H3katonkheir on 5/6/2012, 04:22

Should be easy enough to implement that Smile

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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by }{odge-Podge on 5/6/2012, 05:02

No skills? What does that entail?
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by LeafMuncher on 5/6/2012, 05:49

"No vault abilities" is something I will never add to the map. It would be like adding a mode that denies the use of undefeatables...
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by }{odge-Podge on 20/6/2012, 18:39

Ah, I see Tongue Makes sense ^_^
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by IdontMind on 27/6/2012, 04:19

MODS:
I would like to see mode similar to DotAs -sd. Couple of random races to pick from, 3-5 maybe.
Also why dont we have a competitive style banning mod, where every team captain bans 4-6 races.
Or a mod where you pick races for the opponent.
CREEPS:
I would like to see dreadlord,wolf and arachnid HP slightly nerfed and the other creeps slightly buffed. I think that Obsidian Destroyer is weak for the money.
I think there is too much of a gap between the 230 gargoyle boss and 800g Razor boss. I feel the gargoyle is often too weak, Make the gargoyle stronger and more expensive. Like a 450gold boss.
RACES:
Buff King Leoric already. He is trash. I think the centaurs are weak too and couple of other races need a buff/rework too.
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by H3katonkheir on 27/6/2012, 04:55

An -sd clone has been debated for a while, might dig it back up. Banning draft is also a good idea, however, I don't think a mode where you pick your opponent's builders for them will be considered Wink

May I assume you juggle? If not then I'll have to change my argument. Personally I don't find wolves that troublesome. The ~ratio of health / cost is maintained for Dreadlords, I suppose it should be lowered. Obsidian Destroyers have 11x the hp regen of surrounding creeps, which is where its strength lies, perhaps even that is too low? In anycase, large nukes should take them out quicker than many low attacks.
I quite like the idea of a ~450 gold boss, have a few ideas for it, will just need to be discussed.

King Leoric has been discussed here quite a bit, and most certainly will change. If you have any other particular builders that you'd like to see changed, just give them a mention. (Evolution Helper, Effect Master, Miss Allyoucanknow, upon others are being worked on currently).


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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by IdontMind on 27/6/2012, 06:28

H3katonkheir wrote:

May I assume you juggle?

I do juggle and like to use slowing towers. And even without slowing towers I find wolfes/dreadlords/arachnids to be the strongest creeps due to their superior ms. I think that creeps such as Huntress compared to Wolf/Abomination are just trash.
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by H3katonkheir on 27/6/2012, 06:44

That is a good strategy, one which I also use, but there are many, many who don't juggle. The stats for creeps are mostly based around non-jugglers, so an all round creep buff wouldn't be possible.
As I say I'll have a look at balancing out some of the creeps.

Additionally (sorry, I forgot to add this to the above post); the Atmodos Arachnid, is purposefully extra powerful to prevent games from lasting infinity long (they serve a similar purpose to Undefeatables), and quite easily tear through jugglers.

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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by LeafMuncher on 28/6/2012, 00:21

Does anybody like the sound of switching Obsidian with Dreadlord in Tier 2 Shrine? Then I would increase Dreadlord HP but not higher than Obsidian. This would fit in with strongest creep per shrine being the fast mover, but with the high HP Obsidian would still be worthwhile. Another thought would be to increase Panda's armour or make them fortified armour type. Wolf and Atmodos Arachnid are perfectly balanced in my opinion. I hate Abominations a lot more than wolves Smile

A thought I've had for a while is that because most people want weak builders to get buffed rather than strong ones made weaker, we might as well increase stats for mid game and/or late game creeps.

Another thought I had for Tier 3 creeps is adding and upgrade to the shrine that reduces cooldown on creeps or reduces lumber cost. This would be a VERY expensive upgrade for those games that go to round 70 or more, to prevent players being stuck on huge amounts of gold with nothing to send.

Edit: About Huntress, there needs to be something weaker to send when u run out of wolves and pudgies. If they were all just as good then games wouldn't last very long. I don't use the same argument for late tier 2 creeps because by the time you send them in volume you should be aiming to finish with Sasquatch Smile
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by IdontMind on 28/6/2012, 04:11

LeafMuncher wrote:Does anybody like the sound of switching Obsidian with Dreadlord in Tier 2 Shrine? Then I would increase Dreadlord HP but not higher than Obsidian.
A thought I've had for a while is that because most people want weak builders to get buffed rather than strong ones made weaker, we might as well increase stats for mid game and/or late game creeps.
I like the idea to increase stats for the midgame creeps a bit in accordance with the builders getting generaly stronger.
Swapping dreadlord with obsidian is a good idea if the dreadlord gets only a microscopic boost and obsidian remains the same for a lower price. Pandas are not that weak, but buffing them as a midgame creep is a good idea IMO.

LeafMuncher wrote:
Edit: About Huntress, there needs to be something weaker to send when u run out of wolves and pudgies. If they were all just as good then games wouldn't last very long. I don't use the same argument for late tier 2 creeps because by the time you send them in volume you should be aiming to finish with Sasquatch Smile
I dont see that as a bad thing necessarily. Lately all decent games take 60+ rounds. Id like to see faster victories possible.
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by }{odge-Podge on 29/6/2012, 02:38

THERE'S A TROLL IN THE DUNGEON! O_O

Ah, humour Excited Any way. I like the idea of swapping the Obsidian thing with the dreadlords, even though I rarely use them coz I get side tracked and then just spam wolf riders xD

The idea of a -cm and -sd mode sounds really cool too Excited
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

Post by Valjavec on 30/6/2012, 06:08

}{odge-Podge wrote:THERE'S A TROLL IN THE DUNGEON! O_O

Ah, humour Excited Any way. I like the idea of swapping the Obsidian thing with the dreadlords, even though I rarely use them coz I get side tracked and then just spam wolf riders xD

The idea of a -cm and -sd mode sounds really cool too Excited


Wolf riders ftw i love them i spam them as well mostlly Excited
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Re: Next version; What buffs / nerfs would you like to see?

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